wf and faith: 120/45 vs 45/45

I know there are differences on opinion but from my calculations Faith - at least as long as the merc stays around should outperform wf.
In addition to being much cheaper a 45/45 will perform better on a Faith then a 120/45.

Wf you could use

Atma's - not sure how to weigh this - Faith you need to use cat's (for 6 fpa multi shot)

Can you have a look and let me know if I did some major errors?

@Schnorki, I summon thee!

You rang?

Ah, the eternal discussion...

Without checking the math here (no need rly):
If you try to emulate Faith with a WF then yes, Faith will outperform (albeit still only barely with otherwise proper gear for both).

The point of WF isn't to still somehow get to higher IAS breakpoints, it is to

Sacrifice the (admittedly fun) inherently superior attack speed of Faith in favor of (significantly!) higher dmg per hit which (when geared correctly) averages out to ultimately higher DPS with WF. Pushing IAS to 7 frames on a WF instead of focusing on raw dmg is kind of like pushing raw dmg to the max on Faith while keeping your attack speed at a base 11 frames to do so. Build on the strengths, rather than trying too hard to fully make up for the weaknesses.

Faith and WF, assuming each is geared for correctly and at the high-end, are relatively close together in terms of final numbers. WF does win in terms of average DPS and results in noticeably more cases of "1-shot everything, move on", due to the significantly higher capacity for dmg-per-hit. Faith on the other hand offers significantly more reliable/stable damage, thanks to the far lower (not even half) dmg spread on the bow itself and comes with the (subjective) fun-factor of significantly higher attack speed.
Either choice is just fine (for PvM at least) and largely a matter of preference more than anything else.

So basically..
If you're using Faith, you're doing fine.
If you're using WF, you're doing fine.
If you're using WF with a Faith merc, you're doing it wrong.
(Side note: if you're actually considering

Atma's with a WF, you're definitely doing it wrong :p)

Why is

Atma's not considered good? I feel it doesn't trigger that much but I assumed it was similar to reaper's toll on Merc.

Schnorki wrote: 1 month ago

If you're using WF with a Faith merc, you're doing it wrong.

So, just to check my understanding of your point, is this true because it would be better to double down on WF's superior damage by going Pride/Might merc instead of chasing IAS via Faith?

xigua wrote: 1 month ago

Why is

Atma's not considered good? I feel it doesn't trigger that much but I assumed it was similar to reaper's toll on Merc.

I use Atama's and it triggers often with

Strafe, about every few seconds, and each trigger has an 11 second duration (level 2 Amplify) which is enough time for it to proc again. For fun I played around with a

Witchwild String on another build. It has a 2% chance to proc level 5 Amplify with a duration of 20 seconds. This made it an almost guarantee that one or the other would proc and it did about every 2 or 3 seconds of strafeing into a mob, it works best with mobs. For my build I use a Faith on my main and a

Windforce on swap.

I did some more modelling - so apparently a Faith

Diamond Bow with 45/45,

Atma's and Razor tail is leading the paper race.

xigua wrote: 1 month ago

Why is

Atma's not considered good? I feel it doesn't trigger that much but I assumed it was similar to reaper's toll on Merc.

Apart from the proc itself,

Atma's is kind of a terrible necklace. Sacrificing a real necklace for it, especially in the case of a zon, means you're not only sacrificing the stats of a real necklace but you're sacrificing other gear on top of that to make

Atma's work as dropping a cat's or HL or the like also drops your IAS back down, meaning you also have to switch out other pieces to make up for that.

Ultimately, you're sacrificing a very significant amount of stats (=performance) for what is in theory a great proc but in reality a proc with a proc chance so utterly bad that it more often than not either won't proc at all or won't proc until stuff is 1 hit from dead anyways, making it still worthless. The times where you get it to actually be truly useful on a target are far and few between.

Mind you, that's considering high-end gear where everything dies in record time anyways (inherently limiting the chance for

Atma's to proc in time). If your gear is on the low to lower mid end and you actually need a bunch of

Arrows to kill stuff,

Atma's might be worth looking into as it would then possibly have time to take effect.
Essentially, the lower the # of hits needed to kill stuff, the worse

Atma's gets.

It's a glorious choice on paper, if your assumption is "

Atma's = amp = 100% more dmg!" but in reality, that just doesn't hold true most of the time (for more reasons than one actually).

Winterkill wrote: 1 month ago

Schnorki wrote: 1 month ago

If you're using WF with a Faith merc, you're doing it wrong.

So, just to check my understanding of your point, is this true because it would be better to double down on WF's superior damage by going Pride/Might merc instead of chasing IAS via Faith?

Pretty much.

From my brief stint with bowazon, my perspective is that the gap between wf and Faith has widened with the introduction of two new runewords, Hustle and/or Metamorphosis. Triggering Bos with Hustle or mark of bear with Metamorphosis throw eias into the equation which makes max attack speed with wf when using

Strafe well within grasp while also using a conc merc. Between the two, Hustle is obviously more practical and from my experience, the increased movement speed it provides is a wonderful perk for zon, which fights for the bottom spot of least mobile character, neck and neck with shapeshifter druids.

I didn’t test it, but with some decent

Boots and jewelers

Diadem of haste?(whichever is 30frw), you’d get pretty speedy even while packing Fortitude. Granted, procing Bos every minute or two can be taxing but I’d argue the increase in movement speed and reaching maximum dps with the char would increase your clear speed in the majority of zones in the game tho does cut into the flow of the gameplay. If only the dang game put a skill countdown timer somewhere…

Don't forget one more thing and that is the fact that the faster you hit => essentially the more hits you land which also triggers other stuff like CB (which is majorly penalized with ranged yes) and more meaningfully CS. IAS also helps with often finickyness of positioning and effective DPS (actually hitting your targets if your playstyle is to spam

Arrows all around) rather than doing everything perfectly.

I would personally say it's always better to rely on average consistency than on occasional "wowsers", but I think that's just a preference as many other things in this game of ours.

As for the actual numbers, Schnorki and other more experienced players can give you raw data if that's what you are going for solely...

I am thinking right now about Faith GMB and Hustle pre-buff.
Would only need 42 IAS for 7fpa - if you use loh and highlords you could use razor tail, sock 75 max DMG into the helmet (2 x30 and one 15/15) and almost reach

Windforce territory for avg DMG (well, still not quite but not that far away) - and you have light and fire high res without any charms.

okay - so build is done (see above with Hustle as off-hand) except for the charms and I fully understand why people say

Atma's is not necessary - things just disappear - phys bowa is fun and definitely worth trying.

xigua wrote: 1 month ago

I am thinking right now about Faith GMB and Hustle pre-buff.
Would only need 42 IAS for 7fpa - if you use loh and highlords you could use razor tail, sock 75 max DMG into the helmet (2 x30 and one 15/15) and almost reach

Windforce territory for avg DMG (well, still not quite but not that far away) - and you have light and fire high res without any charms.

okay - so build is done (see above with Hustle as off-hand) except for the charms and I fully understand why people say

Atma's is not necessary - things just disappear - phys bowa is fun and definitely worth trying.

Nice dude. Ya she shreds.

I recall with proper support gear that even with Hustle

Matriarchal Bow she was still murdering just fine. Bowazons seem head and shoulders above all others for physical dps, specifically against groups. Physical immunes are annoying tho which was part of rationale for atmas in prior threads.

I’ve never tried it (Id really like to) but think you could probably make a decent ‘start from scratch’ bowazon capable of running hell relatively quick but entirely dependent on scoring a

Ko rune and decent base early. I recall matriarchal bows start showing up in nightmare, probably in cow lvl. Granted you’d need to start with

Exploding Arrow at least through nightmare countess and lvl 1-12 would be sloow if you refused to use javs. It’s just another d2r project I’ll probably never get to based on my unsatisfying addiction to engagement in only the most ideal forms of Wealth generation

xigua wrote: 1 month ago

[..]
phys bowa is fun and definitely worth trying.

Accurate.





Side note:
The PTR Hustle proc did kinda resolve the whole Faith v

Windforce discussion as it was insane enough to easily push WF down to 7 frames without sacrificing any significant amount of ED and the like, meaning Faith couldn't even remotely come close anymore but "sadly" (justified imo, much of a bummer as it was) all of that got nerfed hard before ever going live to the point where at least I for one can't be bothered dealing with it anymore. Still yields a net boost in avg. long-run dmg but a 2min duration before having to stop to switch and re-proc again just felt far too annoying to make it worth it.
Still a solid starter bow though which I guess was the supposed original intention.

Now with Hustle WF will need 137 IAS for 7fpa. Easily doable if you use a 4os armor.

Weirdly enough with

Strafe the Hustle off-hand procs quite reliably and kills stuff (

Shadow Bow). I think I like Hustle despite the short duration as it also gives 23% run speed.

Your 4 os armor is an issue: you usually prefer the 300%ed of Fortitude.

I modelled both - WF with 4os is basically the same now with Hustle-prebuff on both - WF is more expensive due to the 40/15 you need. i am at 12k

Strafe dmg now - not sure if there is much more room